COMBOS & HOW FAST!

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01-31-2004, 06:53 PM
Jeff V
Chief Ponti-yacker Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 583


Man,try to start another legit topic and Gonadus-Maximus has to screw it up already!

68 Firebird back halfed with 10 point cage.
474 with E-heads 340cfm
.690 lift roller cam,Victor intake,1050 Holley 9375,Eagle rods,Ross pistons
Powerglide w/1.76 first gear,transbrake,ATI treemaster conv.4800 stall
Ford 9" rear,spool,4.30 pro gear
32 x 14.5 Goodyear slicks

Tune up:94 jets square,30-32 degrees timing,3800 launch,6400 shift.

ET:5.95 @ 115 1/8 mile best Avg.6.05 @ 114
9.48 @ 140 1/4 mile best Avg.9.54 @ 139

Jeff Verdi
2003 SWC Richmond Dragway
Attached Images

__________________
Jeff Verdi
68 Firebird

-31-2004, 08:00 PM
Brian Baker
Ultimate Warrior Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Glen Burnie, MD USA
Posts: 11,481

79 T/A stock chassis with 10-pt cage and Cal-Tracs.
467 with d-ports, 250-cfm.
.640" lift roller cam, Torker-2 intake, 850 Holley, BME rods, Ross pistons.

th400 w/stock gearing, man. rev. valve body (no brake), TCI nitrous convertor (flashes to 3200 naturally aspirated and 4000+ on the bottle).

GM 8.5" 10-bolt rear, Moser spool and axles, 3.73 Reider Racing gear.
29" x 10" Hoosier slicks.

76 jets front, 86 rear w/plug, 36 degrees total timing (locked)...pull 9 degrees out when on the bottle.

Shift at 6000, traps at about 5800 n/a and 6300 on the bottle.

Race weight 3840 lbs.

11.47 @ 120, 1.71 60' n/a (MIR)
10.30 @ 131, 1.46 60' 200 shot (Norwalk)
10.22 @ 131, 1.48 60' 200 shot (Mason-Dixon)
10.12 @ 135, 1.58 60' 250 shot (MIR)

The dew was so heavy that night at MIR I had to wipe the car down in the lanes before making a pass.


01-31-2004, 08:29 PM
Goatman
Ultimate Warrior Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Freetown, MA
Posts: 3,651

1970 GTO Judge clone.
461 400 block.
IA prepped 300cfm E-heads
.660-.680 solid roller.
Wilson ported intake. Modded for EFI by Steve Grebeck.
Eagle stroker kit.
CP pistons.
TH400
ATI 4400 stall converter.
12 bolt with 4.10's and Detroit locker.
29.5x10.5W Et Drag's.

10.09 @ 131 with a 1.37 60' on a stock suspension.... No power adders....

And no, I don't know what I'm doing. Just lucky....and good looking.......and smart......and funny


01-31-2004, 09:52 PM
Tim Corcoran
Ultimate Warrior Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Pnix Arizona
Posts: 1,442

65 LeMans 3600LB
455 with #16's
Eagle 6.8 rods, factory crank
Holley SD manifold with 1050
solid flat tappet cam
Hooker 1-3/4" headers
TH-400/Continental 10" 4200 stall converter
12 bolt/Strange spool & Strange 3.73's
10.90@121/1.46-1.49 60's

Tim C

65 LeMans, 3550lb. D-ports and a flat tappet cam, 10.90@121
__________________
65 LeMans, 10.75 @123, 3500lb D-Port Heads

2004, 07:51 AM
itnop
Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: mattapoisett ma 02739
Posts: 102

65GTO
462in.
3160lbs
Tubo 400
Edl heads
4.56 14-32
9.60 138.20
to much gear?


02-01-2004, 07:59 AM
Mike Davis
Senior Chief Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Loganville Ga
Posts: 481

66GTO,3900lbs with driver, 421, out of the box E-heads, Small Solid Flat Tappet, 10:1 compression, 3000 convertor, 3.73 gears- 10.21@131 on street tires through exhaust, stock suspension.

2003 NSCA/NMCA A/M World Champ- 1966 GTO #421
__________________
2003 NSCA/NMCA A/M World Champ- 1966 GTO #421
2005 NSCA #3 NSS
421CID, Pump Gas, Stock Suspension, M/T Radials, Full Exhaust,3800lbs, 10.58@124.91 In the mid 9's on the spray.



02-01-2004, 09:41 AM
PONTIAC E
Ultimate Warrior Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Ken's Speed & Machine Shop, Brooksville, Fla.
Posts: 6,724

1976 Original 455 T/A 4spd HO car:
Currently:
3510 lbs w/driver.
power windows, tilt wheel. "all" lights, turn signals and horn work.
Single stock location landrum rear springs w/Cal tracs. 12 way shocks
Stock front suspension. Moroso springs and 3 way shocks. Worked bushings.
Full Dash & Interior except for NHRA cert stuff.
Engine: 500+ cu.in; IA block.
Moldex crank, BME aluminum 6.8 rods.
Edelbrock O.C. heads with 2.19/177 (11-1 comp)320 cfm. (No moved pushrods)
Victor w/1050 Dominator.
New Wenzler series II currently in the works.
.800 lift Comp Cams roller. 300+ duration @.050.
T & D shaft assembly. 1.7 ratio.
Powerglide. leave @ 3000 on the brake.
Ford 9" rear. 3:90 gear.
Nitrous Oxide Systems Fogger. (no plate)
BFG Drag Radials.... 295's X 15 on 8" rim

8.93 @154 w/1.43 60 ft'er.

************************************************** ***************************


Build it fast, build it right, build a "e" powered Pontiac.

500 miles is a Trip. A 1/4 mile is a Race .

02-02-2004, 11:07 AM
fasteddy
Ultimate Warrior Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Longmont, Co 80501
Posts: 1,233

Here's mine:

76 Grand Prix---3650 lbs
462 --BMEs and Ross pistons
16 D-ports ported to 270 @ .600
Holley SD with an 850DP out of the box
UD roller with .626 lift 1.5 RR
TH400 4.11 rear (9 inch Ford)
29 x 10.5Ws
4 link suspension

10.72 @ 125.5--1.49 60 foot

fasteddy
2004, 11:52 AM
fasteddy
Ultimate Warrior Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Longmont, Co 80501
Posts: 1,233

Here is my new combo

433cu in---Crower billets--Venolia pistons
Same D-ports flowing a bit more
Same intake and carb
UD solid roller 259/267 @ .05 .639 lift with 1.5s
Same drive train with a higher stall converter(4500)
Same everything else
We'll see when the Spring comes
Any guesses?

fasteddy


02-02-2004, 12:06 PM
pontiac6269
Senior Chief Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Sparta,WI USA
Posts: 392

62 Grand Prix 4040 lbs
400 stock bore and stroke
670 heads polished
214 in 224 ex 442 in 465 ex 112 lobe sep
1.5 roller tips
cast iron intake
Quadrajet
Pertronix conversion and coil
Turbo 400
2.73 gears
P205/70-14 Radials

62 Grand Prix
400,Turbo400
2.73 Gears,4040lbs
13.866 @ 100.58

69 GT0 (still in the garage)
__________________
62 Grand Prix 461,THM400,2.73 gears,235/60-15 drag radials 4100# best e.t.13.149 best mph 107.61 best 60' 2.048
69 GTO
96 Caprice 9C1 LT1 some mods. 14.615 e.t.@ 96.21 mph, 60' 2.126

02-02-2004, 12:48 PM
Skip Fix
Ultimate Warrior Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Katy,TX USA
Posts: 6,903


1978 TA 3750 lbs with me(3600 empty)
1972 HO 455 block 0.040, Ross pistons(580 gms + pins)
BME almunimum rods,stock 455 crank,knife edged and oil holes opened up to 5/16"
Factory windage tray,Milodon pan(canton to be on next one)
72cc E heads ported, Lunati Pro Mod springs,2.11/1.66 valves. UD solid roller 259/264 @ 0.050 0.556 lift 1.5 HS rockers
Comp solid roller lifters, Comp 5/16" 9.250 pushrods
Torker II, Demon 850 dp
Hooker Super Comp 2" headers into 3" Dr. Gas X, Welded Ultraflows,3" Torque Tech tailpipes
TH 350 5000 stall convertor 4.10 10 bolt posi
Hoosier 30x9x15 slicks
10.95 @ 123 best 1/4 , 6.91 @ 99 1/8mile

02-02-2004, 01:25 PM
White Warrior
Senior Chief Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Downers Grove,Il
Posts: 269

63 Tempest
3030 lbs with driver
446" IA block
Crower Ultralite 3.875" billet crank
Childs and Albert 7" rods
Ross pistons 4.28 gas ported/C+A ZGS rings
Wentzler series II heads with 2.18in and 1.85" Titanium valves/Comp 944 springs and Tit. retainers
Comp cam. .725in/.700 ex 288/292@.050
Bathtub intake with 2 Edelbrock 750 AFB's
10.5x29.5 M/T slicks
9.01 @148.56mph

02-03-2004, 09:10 AM
Jim Hand
Senior Chief Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Lees Summit, MO, USA
Posts: 477

'71 Wagon, Race weight 4035#, 473 ci, 10 CR, Home ported 64 heads - 250/200 @ .55, 92 octane Pump gas, MT ET rears, full size fronts, Continental "Tight 10" converter, flashes to 3200, full quiet out-the-back exhaust system. Shift at 5500-5600, cross at 4800 to 5200 depending on gear. All five doors operate including rear power tailgate, all windows original glass and operational. Sleek light weight due to weight saving front glass bumper and Al. Radiator, and removal of second and third seats!

Two iterations:

* RPM intake, 234/244/112 hydraulic cam with Rhoads lifters, Holley 830, 3.55 gear, good weather, best of 11.32/117, with 1.54 60'. View this ticket at:

http://www.pontiacstreetperformance....ld455jh00.html

Current condition: 230/240/113.5 041 cam with Rhoads lifters, cast iron intake, Q Jet, 3.31 gear:
Best of 11.71/113+, with 1.65 60'.

Photo current condition, waiting on the lights to come down - note 11.72 dial-in!

Jim Hand


03-2004, 11:34 AM
Steve C.
Ultimate Warrior Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Liberty Hill, Tx. (Austin)
Posts: 2,388

1970 Trans Am, full interior, stock type suspension, street driven on pump gas.
TH400 transmission with 3.73 gears, 28x15 M/T ET Street tires. Engine is a .030-over 455, 87cc E-heads, Comp 292XSR solid Street Roller, Performer RPM intake, Holley 950HP carburetor and 2" headers.
Best performance to date with this combo is 10.88 at 124.28 mph on the motor.

(with previous 450ci engine best ET was 10.36 @ 129.3 mph on the motor and 9.59 @ 140.6 playing with nitrous. Limited street use)

02-03-2004, 03:18 PM
Jeff Kinsler
Senior Chief Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: maryland
Posts: 292

1968 Firebird
3420 with driver
Turbo 350
12 bolt 3.55's
10" ATI 4400
455 block (468)
stock crank (offset ground)
6.8 steel oliver rods
ross pistons
ported #16's
solid roller 671 lift 266 - 272 duration at .050
Performer RPM intake
holley 950
1 3/4 dougs headers
3 " exhaust with h-pipe with tailpipes
Best time 10.36 at 130.00.
Shift at 5800
Stock leaf spring with slapper bars.
And is street driven.......

68 Firebird 468
#16 D-Ports w RPM intake
10.36 @ 130.68
3.55 Gears
Street Car

__________________
68 Firebird 468
Buying Wide-Ports
Still stock block
Shooting for 9.60's all motor
3400 lb street car.

, 06:20 PM
bigcountry
Member Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Sunny Vancouver, Washington
Posts: 60

Here's mine-

1963 Catalina (3950 race weight)
462, eagle rods, studded bottom end, ross pistons
13:1 compression, Macarthy ported 62's
Holley HP 950 88 square
Comp XE 294 hydraulic, HS 1:65.1 rollers
Longshaft turbo 400, 4.10 locker
MT 29.5x10 slicks

best time of 11.06 @ 113 mph

The light at the end of your tunnel is just a freight train coming your way - Metallica
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chiefbigb
Chief Ponti-yacker Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: richmond va usa
Posts: 560

66 Lemans back half chassis I built myself.Loan auto installed a 10 point cage.12 bolt with 4.11 gears 14/32's.461 with kre 325cfm e heads,victor,dominator.Crower crank and rods ross pistons.Comp cams .660 roller 282 284 at.050.Headman hustler headers coated.400 ati trans and custom converter.The car is estimated to weigh 3380 with driver.Best run of 4 passes last year 10.13 at 131.Car should run a high 9.80 low 90 when I get it right.Brian Ulrich

48 PM
D. Miles
Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 178

79 Pontiac LeMans Safari S/W with 80 Malibu front end (makes the cheby boys mad ) 3320 lbs. with me .030 over 455 with stock std. std. crank Keith Black hyperuetectic pistons on 6.625 Eagle rods 265 CFM # 13 heads 284 dur. .660 lift intake and exhaust Comp Cams roller Harland Sharp 1.5 rockers Victor intake with my own custom made "clover flow" 2" spacer with 8896 1050 Dominator 2" headers with Flowmaster "scavenger" collectors T-400 with 2.76 low gear and T-brake custom ATI 8" converter 4.10 gears with 31.25 X 12.2W Pheonix slicks Launch at 3600 - Best E.T. 9.86 at 132.78 MPH 1.30 60' in 1/4 6.21 at 109.16 in the 1/8 - Wenzler heads are on the way for 2004! D. Miles


issach428
Chief Ponti-yacker Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: tulsa
Posts: 968

72 firebird 3,760 (with me) daily driven

428 .030+
stock rods shot peened arp bolts
trw (stock dished) all balanced
72cc (316 cfm@ .600)eheads cnc ported race for roller cam kre
1.65 roller rockers, extreme energy hyd. roller
adv. 288/296 @ .50 236/.244 lift .573 .594
torker 2 (stock) not port matched
holley dp 850 (cut off choke tower)
msd pro billet dist. no vacuum advance, 6al
total timing 39 initial 18 all in by 2500
dacco 3000 torque converter (cheap)
turbo 400 w manual revers shift patern
hedman 1.75 primaries 3 inch with h pipe and 3 chamber flows.
12 bolt 3:73 with slapper bars
3 way adjustable drag shocks on front and rear with big sway bar up front
28" slicks

best time 11.97 113 best 60ft 1.70

i realize my combo is mismatched and with the right upgrades will improve alot.

Pleas feal free to comment
__________________
72firebird 3800# 462 eheads e nitrous cam, continental converter 3.73. Pump gas 11.60's 120 on street tires/ race gas with a controlled 250hp n20 10.34 at 137mph with a 1.61 60ft. on drag radials spinning bad.


Mike S
Chief Ponti-yacker Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Vineland,N.J.
Posts: 635

67 gto 3200lbs
455 with home ported 62,s
solid flat tappet cam 266/275 .575/.585 lift
Torker II with 850 holly
Home built 1 7/8 headers
3.5 dynomax mufflers, 3.5 X pipe
400 trans with ati 8" converter 4200 stall
4.10 rear with 12x29 goodyears
stock suspension front and rear
best time with good air 10.31/129
in the heat of summer 10.50/127
Mike S


russ467
Senior Chief Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Lexinton, SC
Posts: 430

70 Formula 400 stock suspension w/cal tracs

467 Stroker/ 455 block 30 over with billet caps
6.7 Aluminum Super Rods/ domed ross pistons / total seal rings
197 HO Butler ported heads 279@25in h2o/ milled to
95cc
Warrior 4500 flange Butler ported/1050 dominator
645 lift Comp flat tapped solid w1.65 HS rockers
TCI TH400/ TCI 4200 stall 10" converter
4.56 geared 10bolt with 28X10.5 et drags

Best time 1.8th
6.85@101.87
1.52 60ft on old slicks
shifting @ 5600
No power adder YET!!!

Too much gear fow 1/4
__________________
70 Formula
467 Ho head moto
6.79 1/8th mile @ 101.87 no N20. 1.44 60ft
6.23 1/8th @ 111.83 w/nitrous
1.37 60ft


torqjunki
Chief Ponti-yacker Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Spring, TX
Posts: 658

Cam is Comp 276/284 @.050 ground on 108, installed at 102. Carb is definatly getting wide open. I have a EGT installed. It crosses the line around 1350. I intalled different boosters with small umbrella for stronger signal and it went to 1100. Jetting down brought EGT's back up, but did not run any better once jetted properly. I have not tried pumping gas in a jug recently, but did it when I set up the fuel system. I will do it again. Valve springs are new and set up by competent machine shop. They are H-11 tool steel. Timing has been tested between 30 and 36. Dist is locked out. Runs best between 30 and 34. Gonna try another carb. I recently did some chassis dyno pulls and my AF showed 10.2 I took 11 jet sizes out and got 10.4 I did not believe these numbers at the time because the car was running well and not responding to jetting down. Maybe the info was correct .
The exhaust on the heads flow about 70% of the intake. Solid was 271/279 @.050 and roller is 276/284 @ .050. Lobes are .440 very aggressive. First exhaust system was 1 3/4" headers into 3" X pipe and back to Ultra-flow mufflers. Current set-up is 1 7/8" headers with straight 3" pipe back to same mufflers in same location. I have also tried running the car open headers with short extensions and found no gain. Race weight is 3350lbs. Gear is 3.73 with 28" tire. Crosses finish line at 6100rpm. Car seems like it needs one more gear. It gets into 3rd well before the eighth. Converter goes to 4600 outa the hole off foot brake. Best 60ft has been 1.42 with average around 1.47 I think something is wrong in the carb. In the past, a few jet sizes showed on the time slip. I think the intake needs some porting as well.
About 2 years ago when the car was heavier, had a solid flat tappet cam and less head flow and running 10.20's and 10.30's, I brought two sets of tires to the track. Some 30" tall and 28". I back to back the tires and found very little difference in the times and mph. That is the thing that upsets me most that the car ran 10.25 two years ago at 3500lbs with a solid cam and 258 cfm of head flow and I have made several nice improvements and can't find the payoff.


IN A NUTSHELL:


It is a 462 with #62 d-ports flowing about 260cfm @ 28". Cam is 271/278 Ultradyne roller ground on 106. Lift is about 660 with 1.65 rockers. Compression is about 13:1. 1 3\4" headers with 3" exhaust with X pipe and Ultra flows. T-400, 3.73 gear, cal-tracs. Best pass on this combo is 10.28 @ 130. Funny thing is, the car went almost identical times with the 271\279 solid flat tappet I just replaced. I know this is off the subject matter Tom, but could you post or e-mail your thoughts on my new cam selection. THis cam seems too small. Lots of lower and mid, but no upper. Converter goes 4600.

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Re: Attn Slick
« Reply #1 on Dec 5th, 2004 at 8:29pm »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IT SAYS NO CLIP AVAILABLE! SNIFF SNIFF.
RSP MOTORSPORTS (great place to get blueprinted pontiac cranks for $635.00)
www.rsbmotorsports.net/index.asp
main & rod bearing prep
www.calicocoatings.com

Tim Corcoran
Ultimate Warrior Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Pnix Arizona
Posts: 1,332



Badbird,

Based on your race weight I think your predictions are pretty much on the money. The numbers you posted, "#16 ported heads 272 at .700 lift" sounds a little off? Not the flow but the lift. D-ports usually don't flow past .550 lift. I wonder if maybe something is wrong with the flow sheet or? Sounds like some of you guys have killer D-port combos and I love to hear the different combos and compare notes but when you post your combos please post the race weight or I am lost as to how much power your making. Thanks

Tim C

65 LeMans, 10.75 @123, 3500lb D-Port Heads



#35 08-26-2002, 08:42 PM
Jeff Kinsler
Senior Chief Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: maryland



The 10.60 to 10.80 car was running a holley 850 and a solid cam. The other faster one with e-heads had a 850 or so and had a solid roller in that one. Dont know too much of the specs but they ran good for that intake.

68 Firebird 468
#16 D-Ports w RPM intake
3.73 Gears
Street Car
10.36 @ 130.68 on motor
9.88 @ 136.79 (so far)
150 shot


#34 08-26-2002, 02:15 PM
torqjunki
Chief Ponti-yacker Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Spring, TX



What carbs were the GTO's running? Did the 10.50 car run a roller?

torqjunki
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#33 08-25-2002, 07:12 PM
Jeff Kinsler
Senior Chief Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: maryland



We will just see how long I can go with the one thats in it then right? I was at Ederlbrock Pro Series at Maple grove today and there were 2 gto's in a bracket class and one was a 400 .030 ported d-ports and crower cam somewhere around 250 260 duration at .050 and .633 lift with RPM intake shifting at 5200 and the car has been 10.60's in good weather, car was going 10.90's but dialed 11.0s. He runs 11.00 index. The other gto had a 462 87 cc e-heads milled to 75 (dont ask me why he just didnt buy 72's) big cam and RPM and the car's best run in good weather is 10.20s, today he was running 10.50's. SO that answers my question about that intake making enough h.p. to go 10.50's. The one goat weighed 3600 with driver the other was 3500, heavier than my car. To go 10.20's in a 3500 lb car that has to be around 620 - 640 hp my guess.

68 Firebird 468
#16 D-Ports w RPM intake
3.73 Gears
Street Car
10.36 @ 130.68 on motor
9.88 @ 136.79 (so far)
150 shot


#32 08-24-2002, 11:10 PM
SCOTT ESTERLE
Ultimate Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: WADSWORTH,OH



no



#31 08-24-2002, 08:39 PM
Jeff Kinsler
Senior Chief Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: maryland



Can you buy a spool that will take 3.55's?

68 Firebird 468
#16 D-Ports w RPM intake
3.73 Gears
Street Car
10.36 @ 130.68 on motor
9.88 @ 136.79 (so far)
150 shot


#30 08-24-2002, 05:50 PM
SCOTT ESTERLE
Ultimate Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: WADSWORTH,OH



I broke the stock unit. I now have a spool.


#29 08-24-2002, 12:14 PM
Jeff Kinsler
Senior Chief Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: maryland



Scott, what do you run aftermarker posi unit or spool? I think 3.73 will be to much when I spray it. Plus I like the driveability of 3.55's. If the performer RPM works out then 3.55's should work good on motor also.

68 Firebird 468
#16 D-Ports w RPM intake
3.73 Gears
Street Car
10.36 @ 130.68 on motor
9.88 @ 136.79 (so far)
150 shot


#28 08-24-2002, 12:08 PM
Jeff Kinsler
Senior Chief Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: maryland



Yep, your exactly right. Thats the correct way to do it flow heads and intake together . If this intake combo doesnt pan out, then at the end of this year I will send heads out with a new intake and do it the right way. I just hope this will give me enough power to put it in the high 9's on 150 shot.

68 Firebird 468
#16 D-Ports w RPM intake
3.73 Gears
Street Car
10.36 @ 130.68 on motor
9.88 @ 136.79 (so far)
150 shot


#27 08-24-2002, 08:09 AM
SCOTT ESTERLE
Ultimate Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: WADSWORTH,OH



There are no 3.55 gears for a 4 series carrier. I just went through this. I busted my posi on a bad track from to much tire spin. The problem with the 3.73 gear that is made for the 4 series is it was made for street appl not race. Richmond said they may work but what i was doing they could not guarantee. So far over 30 passes on them . That thin ring gear scares me.


#26 08-23-2002, 10:54 PM
Marty Palbykin
Member Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Tucson,AZ



Head flow numbers are great but if you don,t flow your heads your intake they are not valid. Many head porters inflate flow numbers. But if you bolt your intake to your heads and exhaust man/headers. You can predict Hp. within 5%.
Hope this helps.Marty


#25 08-23-2002, 09:57 PM
Jeff Kinsler
Senior Chief Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: maryland



Here are the exhaust numbers.

.200 .300 .400 .500 .600 .700

111 148 175 189 197 199.

I still want to keep my 3.55's, im sure someone makes a spool that will take that gear ratio, if not I will get a brute strength posi or something.

68 Firebird 468
#16 D-Ports w RPM intake
3.73 Gears
Street Car
10.36 @ 130.68 on motor
9.88 @ 136.79 (so far)
150 shot


#24 08-23-2002, 05:43 PM
torqjunki
Chief Ponti-yacker Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Spring, TX



Thanks for the info. Butler did a good job on the heads. Air flow over .550 is very modest as with most d-ports due to shrouding. Please post the exhaust numbers too. My car at 3500lbs+ trashed the spider gears on a good track running in the 11.0 range. If you use a Strange spool, it is a 4 series and you will need 4 series gears. I do not know of anything numerically smaller than 3.73 for a 4 series carrier. The 3.55's would be great for the nitrous though. My 28" tires and 3.73's turn the motor too hard through the quarter.


#23 08-23-2002, 05:03 PM
Jeff Kinsler
Senior Chief Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: maryland



Torqjunki, what's up? Here are some of my head numbers. Butler did the race port (pretty much maxed them out he says).
Flow performed at 28 " of water, 4.200 bore.
.200 .300 .400 .500 .600 .700

153 203 240 260 270 272
They are the corrected #'s.
These are the uncorrected #s
164 218 257 279 289 291
Dont know the difference between them though.

Yep, running a stock posi with moser axles, and im sure its not going to last that long so Im going with a spool not too long after I get it running, definetly wont spray it with that posi unit in there. It has went 10.30's with that posi so far, but wont push the envelope.
Sounds like the victor might be the way to go after all, I guess I was a non believer but now that seems like everyones choice. If that converter is a little looser than it should be than I will definetly go with a single plane(either victor or warrior) to raise my RPM range.

GTOKID, Let me try it and if it picks up I will buy it, hows that sound?

68 Firebird 468
#16 D-Ports w RPM intake
3.73 Gears
Street Car
10.36 @ 130.68 on motor
9.88 @ 136.79 (so far)
150 shot


#22 08-23-2002, 07:31 AM
Larry Navarro
Ultimate Warrior Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Spring(Houston) Tx. USA



yeah....going for a ride in daves car is a total rush.
a street and strip terror!!!

Featuring "Hyperforce" T/A shaker induction


#21 08-23-2002, 06:50 AM
GTOKID
Chief Ponti-yacker Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Wilmington DE, USA



jeff, if you want to try a torker 2 you can have mine cheap!!! call me you can use it.. anytime its too much for my ventura...lol

[ August 24, 2002, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: GTOKID ]


#20 08-23-2002, 03:28 AM
torqjunki
Chief Ponti-yacker Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Spring, TX



Sorry, I've been out of town. Super nice ride badbird, and great sounding combination. In my humble opinion, the criteria for intake selection lies more in converter stall and RPM potential. The inherent high velocity d-port heads will love the Victor and Dominator. Your stall speed and solid bottom end are ideal for this intake. I would like to see your flow numbers at all lifts for intake and exhaust. 272cfm sounds good, but at .700 lift? Did they flow more or less at .600? Who flowed them, what bench and bore size? I agree that lift is high. Duration is good for that compression ratio. I run 3.73 gear but wish I had some 3.55's to try. If your running a posi, you'll probably destroy it. I think the 3.73 is the smallest gear for the 4 series spools.







462ci stock SD rods and cast crank 12.5:1
#62 D-ports...270cfm @.500
271/279@.050 .612 lift with 1.65's
108 LSA intalled at 102 ICL (Butler grind, solid)
T-400 with PTC 4200 10"
3500lb race weight
Stock suspension with slapper bars
Victor/1050 Dom
Best Et. 10.25 @ 129 1.44 60ft
In summer Texas heat, 10.40's
175 shot, 6.15 @112 with 1.36 60ft 1/8th

Regardless of the dyno info, try the intake/carb combos as well as all other changes at the track.


#19 08-22-2002, 09:33 PM
Steve C.
Ultimate Warrior Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Liberty Hill, Tx. (Austin)



Seen it posted that a a 282-cfm Pontiac cylinder head was flow bench tested with various intake manifolds bolted on to see how much the flow dropped off.(no valve lift stated)
Victor with Holly flange- 279 cfm
Victor Dominator flange- 276 cfm
Performer RPM- 273 cfm

Be sure you do some testing with a Victor, you will like the results... and if it's limited street driven your combination won't care


#18 08-22-2002, 08:26 PM
David Holmberg
Moderator Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Port Charlotte, Florida



Badbird, if you go back in the race section you will find Dave's combo and ET's. It was a month or two ago.

Sorry, I'd find it for you but I'm watching "The siege of firebase Gloria".

His cam is a large soild, nice combo.

08-22-2002, 07:37 PM
Jeff Kinsler
Senior Chief Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: maryland


Also running a 3 vane aero space vacuum pump to evacuate my crank case pressure. My other motor blew out the rear main (dont know the main reason but think excessive crank case pressure on 150 shot might have done that). Dont have a pcv valve.

68 Firebird 468
#16 D-Ports w RPM intake
3.73 Gears
Street Car
10.36 @ 130.68 on motor
9.88 @ 136.79 (so far)
150 shot


#16 08-22-2002, 07:35 PM
Jeff Kinsler
Senior Chief Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: maryland



Larry what car is dave sober running,what e.t's,what engine combonation?
thanx

68 Firebird 468
#16 D-Ports w RPM intake
3.73 Gears
Street Car
10.36 @ 130.68 on motor
9.88 @ 136.79 (so far)
150 shot


#15 08-22-2002, 07:33 PM
Jeff Kinsler
Senior Chief Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: maryland



Steve, I emailed you a couple times a few months back. I'm going to run the RPM the way it is first and then cut the divider plate a 1/2 at a time and see if it picks up e.t.

68 Firebird 468
#16 D-Ports w RPM intake
3.73 Gears
Street Car
10.36 @ 130.68 on motor
9.88 @ 136.79 (so far)
150 shot


#14 08-22-2002, 06:10 AM
SCOTT ESTERLE
Ultimate Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: WADSWORTH,OH



Duration is 256 intake & 268 exhaust at .050..


#13 08-21-2002, 09:53 PM
Mike S
Chief Ponti-yacker Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Vineland,N.J.



Try the RPM it might suprize you in how it performs. I run an RPM with only a 750 Holly DP. So far best et is 10.71/124.3.
455+.035 4.21 stroke
62's flow ? 12.07 comp.
255/266 .540/.534 106ls installed at 106
10" coverter 3000-3200 stall
4.10 gear with 29.5 tire
I shift at 5800 and go threw the traps at 6200. I will be trying a modified 850 before the year is out.
Mike S


#12 08-21-2002, 09:35 PM
Steve C.
Ultimate Warrior Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Liberty Hill, Tx. (Austin)



My previous 462 motor was very similar.
280-plus cfm '69 #16 D-ports, 264/271 @.050 solid roller w/.689 lift on a 108LS, worked 750 carb(rated 926cfm) and 1-7/8 headers.
The motor was dyno'd with a Victor and a Performer RPM, both intakes port matched to the heads and had a 1-inch spacer installed.
The RPM had the plenium divider cut down 1-inch.
Victor- 632tq @4600 rpm & 635hp @6300 rpm
RPM- 617tq @4400 rpm & 612hp @6100 rpm


#11 08-21-2002, 09:16 PM
Larry Navarro
Ultimate Warrior Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Spring(Houston) Tx. USA



i was hoping dave sober would jump in on this topic....
badbird, don't under-estimate the performance of a set of well prepared d-ports, when used with the higher-end cam profiles such as yours. dave runs a victor and a 1050dominator carb with great success and has others guys in our area doing the same.
he raised quite a few eyebrows at the PSN's race event.

Featuring "Hyperforce" T/A shaker induction


#10 08-21-2002, 08:37 PM
Jeff Kinsler
Senior Chief Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: maryland


Scott, sounds like a good combo. My old flat tappet cam with 1.60 rockers had .551 - .571 lift with 246 - 256 duration at .050. What's the duration of your solid. yeah i was at norwalk for the first time this year and it was great and HOT. Thats a great pass in that heat. Im going to bring my car their next year.

68 Firebird 468
#16 D-Ports w RPM intake
3.73 Gears
Street Car
10.36 @ 130.68 on motor
9.88 @ 136.79 (so far)
150 shot


#9 08-21-2002, 07:48 PM
SCOTT ESTERLE
Ultimate Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: WADSWORTH,OH



I have a 461 stroker engine with E-heads & compression is 10.5 to 1. I run a solid flat tappet with 551 & 571 lift. I also run the Edelbrock torker 2 intake. Best pass was at Norwalk in that 90 degree heat. 10.96 at 119.50. Sixty foots around 1.48 with 3.73 gears & a 10inch converter. I run Citgo 93 in it.


#8 08-21-2002, 06:27 PM
Jeff Kinsler
Senior Chief Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: maryland



Fasteddy, I run at cecil county maryland ( close to sea level) so the track is fast. I'd love to run 10.45 with my combo. How does the holley sd intake compare to the RPM?
David, I met you at norwalk standing next to ken's car. I thought the victor was way too much for d-port heads, I dont think d-ports can flow nearly what the victor does. A buddy of mine has a warrior and 1050 dominator so after I run it a while and tune it with what I have then we are going to put that combo on mine and see what happens.I really dont know what im going to shift at yet, thinking of around 6000 - 6200 depending on what the RPM intake does.
Scott, what do you run in your bird?
John, If you add in valve adjustment, then lift is actually .644. close to what you had, but duration isnt even close. Will see soon. Motor is being painted next week then going to drop it in.

68 Firebird 468
#16 D-Ports w RPM intake
3.73 Gears
Street Car
10.36 @ 130.68 on motor
9.88 @ 136.79 (so far)
150 shot


#7 08-21-2002, 03:33 PM
John Langer
Senior Chief Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: phila pa usa


too much lift, not enough duration, consider a cam in the .640/.640 range with 280 /280 duration @ .050 on a 106 installed around 101-102. My 400 went mid 10's at 125 weighing 3400 lbs with a cam close to that. More lift slowed it down, less duration slowed it down


#6 08-21-2002, 02:35 PM
SCOTT ESTERLE
Ultimate Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: WADSWORTH,OH


I think your motor can run the Victor intake. That motor should run low 10's..


#5 08-21-2002, 01:58 PM
David Holmberg
Moderator Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Port Charlotte, Florida



The Victor intake and a Dominator will add 25+ Hp to your combo. The car will run almost as well with an 850 on a Warrior intake.

Every combo is different, so I would do a back to back test with the RPM and the TII. The TII will need a spacer, but may run better if your shifting over 6K.


#4 08-21-2002, 01:07 PM
fasteddy
Ultimate Warrior Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Longmont, Co 80501



Nice combo--similar to mine. I run a 462 with 16s and a solid roller. No nitrous. 3650 with me in it runs 11.30 at 5000 ft--10.60 to 10.70 at 1000ft. I would say that your combo would run 10.45 on the motor and 9.90 on a 150 shot. BTW I run a Holley SD intake with an 850 DP holley. That port matched RPM will give you what you need.

fasteddy



#3 08-21-2002, 12:22 PM
Jeff Kinsler
Senior Chief Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: maryland



1968 Firebird
weighs in at 3400 with me in it.
__________________
68 Firebird 468
#16 D-Ports w RPM intake
3.73 Gears
Street Car
10.36 @ 130.68 on motor
9.88 @ 136.79 (so far)
150 shot


#2 08-21-2002, 12:19 PM
Jeff Kinsler
Senior Chief Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: maryland


Hey, I want some opinions on what everyone might think my new motor will run and estimated h.p.
468 c.i.
455 .035 4.25 stroke stock crank
oliver steel 6.8 rods
ross custom flattops
file fit plasma moly .020 top ring .024 bottom
4 - bolt steel caps and 1/2 filled block
piston is .005 out of hole
cam is .671 lift with 1.60 rockers (solid roller)
duration is .266 - .272 at .050
110 L/S
installed at 106
stock pan with baffle and crank scraper
m54ds with washer intstalled to get 70lbs
#16 ported heads 272 at .700 lift
.050 milled for around 11.8 to 1 compression
intake is RPM port matched with matched 1 inch spacer with carb shop holley 972 cfm.
turbo 350 with ATI treemaster 4200 - 4400
12 bolt with 3.55's
also going to hit it with 150 shot occasionally
I am hoping for 10.50's to 60's on motor but i dont know if the intake can make that much power.
9.90's on 150 shot
I know the rpm doesnt sound right but the victor is way to much for my combo,warrior is too expensive, maybe should try torker II if rpm doesnt work out. Whats the fastest times that anyone has seen with an rpm intake?
thanx
badbird68
__________________
68 Firebird 468
#16 D-Ports w RPM intake
3.73 Gears
Street Car
10.36 @ 130.68 on motor
9.88 @ 136.79 (so far)
150 shot



#1 08-21-2002, 12:19 PM
Jeff Kinsler
Senior Chief Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: maryland



Hey, I want some opinions on what everyone might think my new motor will run and estimated h.p.
468 c.i.
455 .035 4.25 stroke stock crank
oliver steel 6.8 rods
ross custom flattops
file fit plasma moly .020 top ring .024 bottom
4 - bolt steel caps and 1/2 filled block
piston is .005 out of hole
cam is .671 lift with 1.60 rockers (solid roller)
duration is .266 - .272 at .050
110 L/S
installed at 106
stock pan with baffle and crank scraper
m54ds with washer intstalled to get 70lbs
#16 ported heads 272 at .700 lift
.050 milled for around 11.8 to 1 compression
intake is RPM port matched with matched 1 inch spacer with carb shop holley 972 cfm.
turbo 350 with ATI treemaster 4200 - 4400
12 bolt with 3.55's
also going to hit it with 150 shot occasionally
I am hoping for 10.50's to 60's on motor but i dont know if the intake can make that much power.
9.90's on 150 shot
I know the rpm doesnt sound right but the victor is way to much for my combo,warrior is too expensive, maybe should try torker II if rpm doesnt work out. Whats the fastest times that anyone has seen with an rpm intake?
thanx
badbird68
__________________
68 Firebird 468
#16 D-Ports w RPM intake
3.73 Gears
Street Car
10.36 @ 130.68 on motor
9.88 @ 136.79 (so far)
150 shot




grnmnstr
Senior Chief Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 481

D port combo secrets



Slick1,
Larry builds a great engine. He is doing one for me right now. 510" IA2, 4.31 piston, 4.375" Moldex forged crank, Eheads, big roller, Victor, Dominator, new vacuum pump, close to 15:1. We are trying for 900 HP N/A. If we get a 8 sec timeslip, we'd be happy, especially in my old 73 Bird. We are looking to get a tube chassis car to go 7s, but first we have to sell the Bird. Know anybody???

Anyway, the 467" Dport (#16) ran very well. As you can see by my sig, it did run a 9.93 once (great air, great traction at Etown). The first thing I noticed in your combo that I would change is the headers.
1 3/4" is too small. Go to the 2", if a header fits that chassis, if not go to 1 7/8". Either way, the one you have is too small. I would assume then you also have 3" mufflers. Too small, go 3 1/2".
The 1050 will pick you up a little. I use an HVH 1" spacer. The stock jetting is 88 square, I believe. That is a good starting point.
The TB and ladder bars definitely work. Before I had ladder bars, I used SSM bars with my leafs. They worked very well. That was about 8 years ago. It seems everybody nowadays runs the Calverts.
The right converter will also help. I sold my 9" Select converter I had for my old combo to Jamie Horton. It is in his car now. He says it runs great. That would have been perfect for you.
I used to run 34 - 36 degrees total, locked out with an MSD distributor. Make sure your HEI is gutted or the advance can be fluctuating.
I used to launch about 4000 (TB), shift at 6400 and trap at 6400. I run the 29.5 x 11.5W Hoosiers on 12" rims. Do to the small head, there is no need to go higher than 6400.

One thing I highly recommend on 455s is aluminum rods. They will let the crank and block live longer.

10.30s should be attainable. Remember, get the 60s down and the ET will drop.
I have gone a best 60' of 1.282. The suspension works!! I launch at 4400 on the brake, with a TH400 and 4.11 gears. There is a LOT of torque going to the slicks.
In order for the rear suspension to work, the front suspension has to be VERY loose. Moroso trick springs, good shocks and ALL the bushings have to move as free as possible. After we changed the original upper and lower A frame bushings, WOW!!!! What a difference

Good Luck,
Tom Kilroy
__________________
73 Firebird
(Old combo) 462 D-Port, 3250 lbs. Best ET: 9.93 @ 133 mph
(New combo) 481 E-head, 3200 lbs. Best ET (so far): 9.39 @ 143 mph


GOOD INFO FROM THE PONTIAC MASTERS!


UPDATE!!! JEFF KINSLER GOES 9.58 @ 141!!! (here's how he did it)

09-07-2006, 09:07 AM
Jeff Kinsler
Senior Chief Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: maryland




Bud, thanx. It was in the right lane.. Why you ask?
76ta400. It is a stock 455 block bored .035 with a 4.25 stroke stock crank (pontiac e did the crank for me). 468 ci. Butler did the wide port eheads for me and cam. Victor intake with a pro systems dominator. Pistons are ross flat tops and compression is around 12.6 to 1. Converter is a PTC 9" flashes to 5800 on launch. 3.73 gears with a 275/60R15 drag radial tire. The heads are whats making the power. Spend the money on heads and intake..
Thanks Ron H.




09-07-2006, 03:12 PM
Jeff Kinsler
Senior Chief Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: maryland



The cam is a comp cam 704 lift with 1.60 shaft rockers. Duration is .280 - .284 @ .050. Cam is 108 lobe sep installed 4 degrees advanced to 104. I shift at 7000 and go through the traps around 7200 rpm's. I have shifted by accident at 7300 but it didnt like it to much. It seems to like 7000 rpm shifts. I dont like them to much though!!!!!





slick1, thanks.... nice talking to you on the phone...Cant wait to see what your new heads do for you..
thanks judgera4...
60man, 3390 to be exact!!! yeah its a roller.. Man that 505 should put up some stout numbers. what heads are you going to run on it? cam sounds good.
__________________
68 Firebird
468 C.I.
Wide-Ports Edelbrock's (Butler's)
Still stock block and crank
3400 lb street car.
Best so far 9.58 @ 141.30....

as a side note! the wide ports flow bet. 360-370cfms, and were prepared by BUTLER!



GREAT 540ci PONCHO BUILD UP!
pontiaczone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10556

[Pontiacman]

HEAD GASKET TROUBLES:

07-07-2005, 03:41 PM
torqjunki
Chief Ponti-yacker Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Spring, TX
Posts: 658


When I had installed the boosters with the umbrella, it was very rich and I had to take a ton of jet out. I had a head gasket problem and had to shut it down before I got to where the car fell off. It did level off at some point and did not seem to respond much after that point, but I was trying to make the car pop or lay over or something to be sure I was lean. It never did. Unfortunatly, the head gasket was letting water in the cylinder that I was reading EGT off of, so that was not accurate. The final numbers showed the boosters slowed the car down and after the head gasket was replaced, I put the carb back to original and it ran 10.20's again. The car does not lay over at high rpm or miss at all.


torqjunki
Chief Ponti-yacker Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Spring, TX
Posts: 658

Yamabond 4...It is a semi drying gasket maker. I believe it will allow the head to lift and expand with out compromising the seal. One tube will easily do 2 gaskets on both sides. Work quickly and have everything ready, it sets up rather quickly. Maybe warm it up and use in warm place. When I went in search of the stuff, I stopped first at a local cycle shop that is not a real Yamaha dealer and asked the guy at the counter if they had any Yamabond. HE looked at the young mechanic and said, what is that? He said, thats the stuff that takes all day to clean off of parts and stays on my hands for several days...I hate it!! I knew I was on the right track right then




#32 02-08-2005, 11:50 AM
torqjunki
Chief Ponti-yacker Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Spring, TX
Posts: 658


Yamabond 4....It was $6.99 a tube. One tube will do 2 gaskets and you will have close to half a tube left. It is a semi drying gasket maker. I believe that it will expand when the head tries to lift and keep its seal. I noticed the composite on the Butler gasket will wash out or deteriorate and leave a path for water to flow out without this sealant. THe stuff is a pain to work with as it tries to start setting up quickly. Use it in a warm place and have every thing ready cause you will need to work fast. Takes some time to spread that stuff on two sides of a big gasket. Funny story, when I went looking for the stuff, I first went to a cycle shop that was not a Yamaha dealer and asked for Yamabond. The older guy looked over at the young mech and said what is that. The mech said, thats that **** that takes all day to clean off of parts and stays on my hands for days. I knew then I was on the right track!!



mikeb
Ultimate Warrior Join Date: May 2003
Location: DFW, Texas
Posts: 1,402


Yamabond is a "glue" of sorts that you can get at your local yamaha motorcycle shop. I used to use that stuff all of the time when I worked as a motorcycle mechanic at a yamaha shop years ago; the center sections of the engine cases are sealed together with it.

As I recall there are two kinds of yamabond(?) (it's been a LONG time since I had that gig). Which kind did you use torqjunki?



torqjunki
Chief Ponti-yacker Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Spring, TX
Posts: 658

I have had issues with the Butler gaskets on my 12.75:1 iron headed 462. First problem turned out to be head bolt length. Second time was likely due to not re-torqueing a few times. Also tried coating both sides of the gasket. That failed too. Never lost compression, just leaked water into lifter valley. The block is o-ringed by the way and always failed after nitrous passes. Also the first few sets of gaskets I believe were the old ones. THey had some sort of sealer applied to the metal surface. The current set came clean and appeared new or fresh. A friend here had used a product called Yamabond on his nitrous motor and was having great success with it. He got the idea from some serious racers here in town. So I used the Yamabond on both sides of the gasket and re torqued several times. This is the longest I have gone without gasket failure. I am spraying up to 300 shot and pulling out only 6 degrees timing. HEad bolts are ARP and have been reused several times.


torqjunki
Chief Ponti-yacker Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Spring, TX
Posts: 658


Been down this road and here is what has worked best for me. I have the block o-ringed and use the Butler composite/steel gasket. I coated both sides with Yamabond. You can purchase it at Yamaha dealer only. I re-torqued no less than 3 times. I spray no less than 200 shot on 13:1 motor that runs 10.20 without spray. Currently spraying 325 shot with no issues yet. Got the idea from some of the big dogs spraying way more No2 than us. Another guy here with E-heads also uses this method and sprays more than me. Not saying this is better than other methods, but seems to work well. If I have problems in future, will likely go the copper gasket route.


#13 01-13-2005, 03:36 PM
Ray Cox
Ultimate Warrior Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Valparaiso,In
Posts: 3,449


if you order them from Flatout they custom make them to your Bore size in 1-2 days at no extra charge, you can also have them deleat the water holes on the bottom that are close, so you can drill them a little smaller and out a little. they also have the super soft version that seams to be better. if you do order them do not get the pre coated ones. O-rings are a must with copper. the new commetics are working good as well but a little pricy


07-08-2005, 08:56 AM
torqjunki
Chief Ponti-yacker Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Spring, TX
Posts: 658


The exhaust on the heads flow about 70% of the intake. Solid was 271/279 @.050 and roller is 276/284 @ .050. Lobes are .440 very aggressive. First exhaust system was 1 3/4" headers into 3" X pipe and back to Ultra-flow mufflers. Current set-up is 1 7/8" headers with straight 3" pipe back to same mufflers in same location. I have also tried running the car open headers with short extensions and found no gain. Race weight is 3350lbs. Gear is 3.73 with 28" tire. Crosses finish line at 6100rpm. Car seems like it needs one more gear. It gets into 3rd well before the eighth. Converter goes to 4600 outa the hole off foot brake. Best 60ft has been 1.42 with average around 1.47 I think something is wrong in the carb. In the past, a few jet sizes showed on the time slip. I think the intake needs some porting as well.

07-08-2005, 03:45 PM
torqjunki
Chief Ponti-yacker Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Spring, TX
Posts: 658

About 2 years ago when the car was heavier, had a solid flat tappet cam and less head flow and running 10.20's and 10.30's, I brought two sets of tires to the track. Some 30" tall and 28". I back to back the tires and found very little difference in the times and mph. That is the thing that upsets me most that the car ran 10.25 two years ago at 3500lbs with a solid cam and 258 cfm of head flow and I have made several nice improvements and can't find the payoff.


CONVERTER & GEARING THOUGHTS:
07-08-2005, 12:25 PM
screamingchief
Ultimate Warrior Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Austin,Texas
Posts: 3,025


I dont think this has much to do with the jetting issue,but it does sound like you car is moving thru the gears to quickly and not staying "on the convertor" as much as it could.

If the car were lighter I'd say it was time for a glide.

Instead you might consider a 2.10 low gearset to try and do the same thing.

This will allow you to keep it in the lower gears longer and keep it "on" the convertor longer allowing the torque multiplication to be greater and move the car thru the first part of the track quicker.

I would most likely change the rear gear and tire size also as part of this change.Use a taller tire(say 30")and slightly more gear(say 3.90-4.10)to keep the SLR where it will still "hit" the tire well on the launch.

These changes would be to keep the trap RPMs in the same area as they are now.

The taller tire offsets the gear increase without negatively altering the SLR and allows for an increase in contact area for the tire adhesion.

This also gives more sidewall to "work" with.

This would likely help pick up the 60 foot numbers some.

As long as the traction is there and the motor makes enough torque to pull it.(and we all know these pontiacs make LOTS of torque to begin with)

This all would help pick up the ET's almost certainly too.

Just some thoughts to consider...


fasteddy
Ultimate Warrior Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Longmont, Co 80501
Posts: 1,281

TJ, ever consider the Hoosier Radial slicks? I loved mine until they wore out. Picked up .3 in the 1/4 and .08 in the 60 foot. 30 x 10.5R 15s

I had to put my old M/Ts 10.5Ws back on because of $$$. Back to the slower times again. FWIW
__________________
fasteddy
-09-2005, 07:20 PM
Lee
Senior Chief Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Baytown/Texas/USA
Posts: 427

Dave,

Might there be a problem with your converter? You are over a second quicker than myself, but your 60' times are only about a tenth different - and I'm heavier, less gear, alot tighter on the converter and on DOT's. I would have expected you to be deep into the 1.3's with your performance.

When I experimented with some converters a few years ago, the really loose ones gave me consistently performance - slower, but consistent!

Lee
07-09-2005, 08:02 PM
gem66
Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Orange,VA USA
Posts: 106

Lee,
I was going to say the same thing. I have seen a converter 'eat' a considerable amount of horsepower on the chassis dyno. If the chassis dyno was a Dynojet there are a couple of graphs that can help determine if this is the problem. The first is gear ratio. It is a calculated figure based on RPM and MPH. If it is a steep ramp and never settles, I would think the converter is failing. The second graph is RPM vs MPH. There are some calculators on the net to tell you the slippage percentage based on the graph numbers you get. Does any of this make sense? I saw a 72 Nova (repeat customer) make meaningful changes, that made no difference in dyno pulls, until we noticed the converter stalling higher, and effective gear ratio changes. I have no explanation for 10 (?) changes in jet with no change in AFR, thats a whopper. Seen it once, when a car was smoking bad with blowby...
__________________
1970 Firebird 3200lbs - CVMS built, pump gas 461, 3.89 gear 28x10 inch tire,... 10.58 @ 128mph.


09:31 PM
screamingchief
Ultimate Warrior Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Austin,Texas
Posts: 3,025


Lee,your kind of showing what I was trying to get at in my earlier post.

By virtue of a lower rear gear ratio you probably are pulling your car longer in the lower gears and lower rpms forcing it to stay "on" your convertor longer thus multiplying the torque more which is picking up your 60 ft. numbers.

The fact that your's has a th-350 still keeps the SLR numbers reasonable for a good tire "hit" on launch,and helps "make up" for the rear gear slightly.

This helps keep your overall gear ratio reasonable, and it also will keep you in the rpm range where your convertor can take advantage of it best in the lower gears.

This would tend to show that he is making up the bulk of the difference in ET when his car is in high gear dropping his rpms enough to put it back "on" the convertor and back to multiplying the torque some more.

More torque will always mean a somewhat higher stall from a given convertor,and if the changes added more torque and not much horsepower,the overall changes could have been lost due to it moving too quickly thru the exact rpms it would help him the most.

I feel he needs to put more of this torque to work in the first part of the track hence my earlier post's suggestions.

With his combination his peak trq/hp numbers are naturally at a higher RPM so he needs to keep the stall around where it is for the sake of maximum yeild on his power.

And he needs to maintain an overall gear ratio to accommodate this and maintain a reasonable maximum rpm also.

The tire diameter can help do that.

So it seems only natural to me to use the transmission ratios to keep it where it can do the most good in the lower gears only.

And still maintain a good SLR with respect to the rear gear ratio.

Again these are just some thoughts...


02 AM
potentpontiac
Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 126

New best 60ft time


raced on saturday night in points battle.Had a new personal best 60ft of 1.277 and ran [e-mail] steel motor 3100lbs,67 Firebird.Made it to semis and fouled with .003red. Still holding on in the 4th position in top et class at home track.Car is running flawlessly and has been real consistent since we started in may.Also missed 3 points races and still have a chance to finish in the top 3 in points with 6 races left

07-11-2006, 05:15 PM
potentpontiac
Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 126

60ft time


Car is back halfed only with factory control arms. Turbo 400 with 2.20 first gear.14.5 x32 Pheonix tires,4.11 gears.Runs the traps at 6500rpm. Shifted at 6000 first to second,6200 second to third.Leave on 2-step at 3400rpm.

HERE'S MORE!:


Tim Corcoran
Ultimate Warrior Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Pnix Arizona
Posts: 1,613

How to choose the right converter for your race car



I would like to start a discussion about torque converter basics. This discussion is not about who makes the best converter or who has the best price. My goal is gain a better understanding on how they work and how to select a proper converter for a specific application. I will start out with the following questions:

1. Why are there different size torque converters?
2. In a race car application why do you see smaller converters in the faster cars?
3. Is there an advantage to having a smaller converter?
4. If you can attain the same stall speed in a 8, 9 or 10 inch converter which one would you choose and why?
5. What is more efficient, an 8, 9, 10, 11, or 12 inch converter?
6. What would have more slippage on the top end a smaller or larger converter?

Tim C
__________________





screamingchief
Ultimate Warrior Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Austin,Texas
Posts: 3,063


Ok,this could get pretty involved,so bear with me here,I'll try and answer these in order,as best I can.

1:Because there originally were different sized cars,with differing needs,originally the smaller convertors were primarily designed for smaller cars (like vegas and such) and these cars had 4 cylinder engines that prodced very low amounts of torque,thus made automatic transmission act "sluggish" when driving them.

Now the first thing to understand about torque convertors is that they actually multiply the torque output from the crankshaft (up till they reach their "coupled" state,roughly at/above the max stall speed),they do so by redirecting the flow inside the convertor and incresing the force "seen" by the transmission input shaft.

This is why the 4 cylinder convertors used higher stall speeds,to "boost" the torque somewhat till the engine was better able to move the car and thus get the car up to the RPM range where it would'nt feel like it was stuck in mud.

This is very complicated to try and explain the hows and whys of this process,so just suffice it to say that this is where "convertor design and component selection" come into play.

2:The smaller convertors were the most common convertors that "back in the day" were able to easily be built/found with significantly higher stalls (4000+),so they became the norm in the lighter/fast cars,even though these early "high stall" convertors were often somewhat "fragile" due to being reworked 4 cyl. hardware.

Still they became popular,and the original convertors were improved upon greatly thru the years,and thus they still remain the norm today.

Now the modern small "high stall" convertors are obviously not just "reworked" 4 cyl. pieces,as many of the internals are now "purpose built" for high performance/heavy duty usage,and obviously quite capable.

3:Sure,less rotating weight all around,more compact fin arrangement allows the ability to use higher stalls speeds,and increased mechanical advantage,and less stress internally as the fins are shorter,thus supported better,and current state of the art includes many advancements in design in these small units,that often are'nt utillized in the larger units,I'm sure there are plenty more advantages,but I'll leave that for further discussion later.

4:IMO,if "race" type performance is the primary concern,and not so much driveability or street functioning,generally the smallest one,see above.

But there often are reasons to consider otherwise,this is an area of much compromise and consideration,and nothing is absolute.

5:This one is tough,I would have to say that likely it would depend on the specific convertors in question,as one could build/find an inefficient 8",or a highly efficient 12",or vice versa,again there is no absolutes.

6:Again,depends on how the specific convertor is built,this varies convertor to convertor depending on the overall "design" and "build" of the convertor in question,this is a function of the internal component selction and it's properties.

The proper selection of a convertor will likely bring much discussion,with many points of view,but suffice it to say,if one is just buying "off the shelf" convertors without consulting a builder,then likely that would be doing oneself a disservice.

This should be a good thread.

Bret.

[Pontiacman]

GANGSTERR
ADDICTED
Member # 418

posted August 18, 2006 06:22 PM

TIGHT FOR SPRAY, HEAVIER CAR MAKES A CONVERTER LOOSER,LESS GEAR MAKES A CONVERTER LOOSER, MORE TORQUE MOTOR MAKES A CONVERTER LOOSER.

BEST BET IS TO GIVE ALL THE INFO TO YOUR CONVERTER BUILDER AND LET HIM BUILD YOU THE CORRECT ONE FOR YOUR APPLICATION.

I HIGHLY RECCOMEND PRO TORQUE IF YOU WANT SOMEONE WHO IS LOCAL,REASONABLY PRICED AND WILL WORK WITH YOU. JOE IS GREAT

Yesterday, 06:48 PM
dammen8
Chief Ponti-yacker Join Date: May 2001
Location: Minot, ND, USA
Posts: 777


3.89 street gear for me and I launch at 5300 rpm, never lost a gear....FWIW I went from 4.33's to the 3.89's and went quicker and faster, I shift at 6400 rpm..

9.75 @ 137.89mph
3500lbs race weight
street driven and all throttle


Yesterday, 06:57 PM
Brian Baker
Ultimate Warrior Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Glen Burnie, MD USA
Posts: 13,138


Quote:
Originally Posted by BVR421
but how could you? they dont say "RACE" on them

He's running a power adder...that's why he went faster and quicker with the numerically lower gear.

"Buying parts I can't afford...with money I don't have...to impress people I don't like anyway."


Yesterday, 07:31 PM
ErikW
Chief Ponti-yacker Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: White Plains, MD USA
Posts: 681


You might be supprised at the outcome. It all depends on how much slippage is in your converter. With my 8 inch converter I changed from 4.11 to 4.56. Car launched harder and it actually tightened up on the converter. Shifting at the same rpm (6500) car went through the traps at the same rpm as the 4.11. Picked up ET & MPH. Just my experience though. I think I had a ton of slippage in that converter. Have since gone with a 9".


Today, 07:45 AM
dammen8
Chief Ponti-yacker Join Date: May 2001
Location: Minot, ND, USA
Posts: 777


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Baker
He's running a power adder...that's why he went faster and quicker with the numerically lower gear.



Nope, N/A....see the signature

Chad
__________________
9.75 @ 137.89mph
3500lbs race weight
street driven and all throttle




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